Comments

1. Seeing as how my previous comment got deleted I better offer something a little more contructive...
   Yes, we are perhaps easily impressed at times, but I think it comes from the fact that we simply love our operating system and does in fact enjoy the subtle details that osx offers. That being said, no it isn't a perfect operating system and yes, that particular feature did exist on windows before Panther came out and yes, I've missed it from time to time.
   Personally I see alot more continuity in the interface on osx than on windows, but thats a personal thing and one of the many reasons I chose osx over windows.

   But you should also be smart enough to realise that mac users like to complain just as much as we like to praise The Good Things(tm) that osx offer. No operating system is perfect, but do realise that osx users often have a lot more passion for their platform than other people have...

   Comment by johan at 16:07, 30 Mar, 2004 #

2. johan: Do you also enjoy those "subtle details" as much when using Windows?

   Comment by Tomas at 16:12, 30 Mar, 2004 #

3. I have been fortunate enough to acquire an iMac G4 17" as an anniversary gift from my wife a few years back. This I can tell you, it's a really nice machine. Well built, well packaged, and the software (Operating System included) that comes on it is nothing short of amazing.

   That being said, I still use my Windows machine as my primary machine. Being a programmer, of the ASP, PHP, and VisualBasic.NET variety, I find it much easier to execute my daily tasks on my Wintel box still. The iMac is only used for iPhoto, iMovie, iDvd and iTunes. Which it is far superior at than my Windows Machine.

   Will I switch? Someday yes.

   On the note of finding little nicities in your OS, there are many to behold. The feature that was spoken of at SimpleBits is something that Windows users take for granted, however I still think that Panther is behind the times when it comes to being able to rename, delete and move files from within the Save As Dialog Box.

   Comment by Colin D. Devroe at 17:36, 30 Mar, 2004 #

4. The problem isn't that Windows doesn't offer subtle features, its that they also obliterate them with the not so subtle features. For example, most of the Windows' users I work with are pretty incompotent about navigating the Windows filing system. They use the 'quick' save feature out of almost ever application and have no idea where they just saved a file to. I even know a few who can't even tell you what the file was saved as.

   So it takes a "power user" to know these features, but your average Window's "power user" is really just a middle of the line users. A "C" player in a class filed with "D's" and "F's". Windows seems to have this annoying habit of pushing people to 'not learn anything at all' beside what it they absolutely have to, or to 'learning way more than they should have to' to get that job done.

   I guy I ride to work with is like a resident expert in video cards. Why? Because he wanted to play video games on his computer. He started playing games almost a year ago, in during that entire time, I've heard once or twice about how cool the game actual was. But I hear almost weekly about how he had to update this driver, purchase a new card, change the configuration of this, and he learned this trick so he could reset parameters for the card via the command line, etc., etc., etc.

   I'm like on one hand its cool your learning so much, on the otherhand, wouldn't this be time better served learning the ins and outs of game you wanted to play.

   Comment by allgood2 at 17:36, 30 Mar, 2004 #

5. allgood2: What your essentially saying is that mac users are far more competant then Windows users are? This I disagree with highly.

   A very large percentage of Mac users are designers. Many designers, at least the ones that I have worked with, could really care less about the Mac OS filing system, as you so eliquently put it for Windows. In fact, they're file structure was so horrible, that 5 times outta 10 the designer had to redo certain projects because of not being able to find the file they were working with previously.

   Blaming an Operating Systems shortcomings on the users of it is certainly not fair. Look at Linux, it's on OS that is definitely superior to most, however people continuously say it's for Geeks. Which is definitely cause for discussion, because the XWindow system was built off what Windows R&D (5B a year) came up with.

   All I can say is, being a Windows user for well over 10 years, and a Mac OS user for only a little over 2, that Mac OS is definitely a step ahead of the Windows OS in many aspects. But the Windows OS (NT) is a very nice Operating System to be sure.

   If I had a choice, I would love a hybrid of features, because each have their strong points.

   About gaming: I'd definitely say that Windows has that locked up for right now. In fact, if I wanted to upgrade my video card in my iMac, I'd have to send it away to get it upgraded, because I cant access it. Without doing some major jiggery. And as Tomas has stated, Windows machines are still cheaper and more configurable.

   Oh well, beating a dead horse, are we not?

   Comment by Colin D. Devroe at 17:47, 30 Mar, 2004 #

6. allgood2: "For example, most of the Windows' users I work with are pretty incompotent about navigating the Windows filing system. They use the 'quick' save feature out of almost ever application and have no idea where they just saved a file to. I even know a few who can't even tell you what the file was saved as."

   You're making a mistake if you think your experiences is a good representation of the average PC user. Secondly, navigating for files isn't that different in Windows and on Mac. Perhaps you surround yourself with less than averagely computer literate people, I don't know, but they seem like it.

   "Windows seems to have this annoying habit of pushing people to 'not learn anything at all' beside what it they absolutely have to, or to 'learning way more than they should have to' to get that job done."

   Obviously, you live in a universe very different from the one I live in, since the PC platform is many times more configurable and allows the user to learn more about it, for the same reasons it's more difficult to use than a Mac; you can change a card in it, you can add a card or a harddrive, you can change the entire OS if you like. And, parts are cheap, so everybody can. Everybody has a friend who is comfortable changing hardware, upgrading the BIOS and even using Linux. This is because their computers, their PCs, are extremely more configurable than a Mac is. That's the world I live in. Perhaps you would like to back yours up with intelligent reasoning, too?

   "I guy I ride to work with is like a resident expert in video cards. Why? Because he wanted to play video games on his computer."

   Well, good thing he has a PC then, or he wouldn't be able to play computer games at all. Seeing as how there, basically, are none for Mac.

   Comment by Tomas at 18:29, 30 Mar, 2004 #

7. "Well, good thing he has a PC then, or he wouldn't be able to play computer games at all. Seeing as how there, basically, are none for Mac."

   Trolling in your own comment string! For shame! There should be a word for this: retrolling, or metrolling, or maybe con-trolling or something.

   Comment by Stefan at 18:49, 30 Mar, 2004 #

8. Stefan: Am I wrong? Is there, perhaps, a wealth of games for the Mac in your alternate universe?

   Because, if there is, I wouldn't be surprised if Mac users, in that universe, also have to upgrade their graphic cards, and their respective drivers, once in a while.

   Gaming requires a lot of performance from one's computer, that's why new drivers need to be installed quite often. If Macs had games, they'd have to upgrade their drivers, and their graphic cards, too.

   (Funny, I've never had to explain that to a PC user.)

   Comment by Tomas at 19:12, 30 Mar, 2004 #

9. Colin D. Devroe: >What your essentially saying is that mac users are far more competant then Windows users are? This I disagree with highly.

   That's not what I'm saying or said at all. Basically I said, the most Windows users get forced into two camps, those who learn alot about things that really shouldn't matter unless your providing technical support, and those who ultimately learn nothing because they are to scared to use their computers. Is there middle ground, of course, as always for any topic.

   Basically, my view is that I feel that the Mac actual encourages the "average" or "below average" user to become more experienced at getting things done on their computer, with a little less fear.

   My point of view or my world experience comes from providing technical support to many of average, below average and above average users in the nonprofit arena. I've done corporate work as well, but prefer nonprofits. I've worked with thousands of organizations across the country, but more specifically with a nice mix of educational, public institutions (libraries, public health, etc.), and social services organization in the San Francisco Bay Area. I've been doing so for almost ten years. So, my experience can be leveraged across thousands of individuals that I've worked directly with via onsite, remote, telephone, and email work.

   My goal wasn't to start a Mac versus PC debate. Yes, I know plenty of Mac users who don't seem to recognize the concept of file folders. But its really not so much that they don't know, as much as they don't care. That said, I also believe the file navigation under OS X is superior to that of OS 9. Apple's adding more and more of the functionality that was lost in the transition from OS 9 to OS X, such as the click and replace feature. But even with the missing subtle features OS X finder is better than OS 9.

   I have some clients that I've been working with for 3-5years. As an organization, and a service provider my goal is not to just fix the users tech support issues but to get them more familar and more at ease with their computing experience, so that they take risk, and try new ways to accomplish the tasks related to their job and the organizations mission. During that time we managed to move a larger percentage of our Mac users forward to 'above average' users than are Windows users.

   I'm not talking about pounding the users with training after training after training. I'm talking about using subtle hints and recommendations, and gentle encouragement to have them do more and not worry about breaking the machine. Of course part of this is inherently harder to do with the Windows users, because often the lessons are counteracted with the 'yes but you can break your machine by just opening a suspicious email' or clicking on that dialog box, etc.

   In fact it could be argued, that if I didn't have to spend so much time training Window's users to be savvy internet, and network users that they could have made just as much progress as the Mac users. But its hard to subtract that variable, when it is such a large part of the windows computing experience. Our Mac users may not know a darn thing about what video card they have in their machine, but they do know they can play the games that are available, they have a rapidly growing savvy in digital media--photos, music, even movies.

   I love the Mac OS. I spend almost none of my home time on a Windows PC, but I support thousands of them, so I can't say they are that different from the Mac or I'd actually have to own a PC to keep up. If Longhorn ever gets released, I may need to by a PC on the cheap to get adept at supporting it, but otherwise, there just isn't that much different between Win95, Win98, Win2k, WinXP and the concepts are similar to Mac OS.

   Comment by allgood2 at 19:54, 30 Mar, 2004 #

10. allgood2: Thank you for that clarification of what you meant, I agree (almost) completely. Windows is less user-friendly overall, and you're more likely to have to deal with malicious viruses, etc, which, of course, makes it harder to familiarize yourself and become more advanced with using the computer.

    Although, I think we may have differing definitions of what an "average" user constitutes; in my experience, the "average" user is capable of a whole lot more than what they ostensibly are in your experience.

    What you call an "average" user is probably what I'd call a "below average" user. But then again, mileage does vary.

    One thing though, about your perspective. If you base your experience of what an average computer user is capable of from support calls, how do you then know what the users who don't call you are capable of? In my experience, average computer users don't even call support to begin with, they don't have to.

    Comment by Tomas at 20:09, 30 Mar, 2004 #

11. Wow. It almost feels like a conversation. I credit that to my vast time being placed on hold today, with nothing better to do than troll my favorite sites.

    Anyway, for Tomas. I agree that your 'average' user doesn't call a tech support center. But that doesn't mean your average user is fairing far better than your 'below average' user. First, I should say about 65-70% of my time is spent on-site at client sites; performing a mixture of routine care and user care. The goal is just regular visibility so users feel confident enough to actual ask question.

    This took on average 2-3mo at most clients. Until they reach that comfortable stage, most users didn't say a thing about issues they were having unless they made the computer totally unusable. So 'my' average user was very adept at restarting the computer, switching to a different application, force quitting, or just silently suffering, as the machines performance slowly disintegrated. But soon as they become confident that they wouldn't be called stupid, then a whole host of issues and problems and just general use issues came up (both on the Mac and PC).

    Comment by allgood2 at 21:00, 30 Mar, 2004 #

12. Don't get an iBook -- they're not made that well. Get a PowerBook.

    Comment by Cheshire at 02:44, 31 Mar, 2004 #

13. "Well, good thing he has a PC then, or he wouldn't be able to play computer games at all. Seeing as how there, basically, are none for Mac."

    I spent a good chunk of time installing games the other day, I must have installed almost 30 or so onto a new machine I'm setting up... Oh, it's an iMac, by the way...

    Comment by pete at 22:56, 31 Mar, 2004 #

14. pete: Wether or not there are games for Mac is a topic too ridiculous to be discussed here. Feel free to discuss it elsewhere though.

    Comment by Tomas at 00:54, 01 Apr, 2004 #

15. I love these threads, it's fun to take bets on a) when the comments will turn into pure dogmatic drivel and b) how long it takes for said dogmatic drivel to hit the 50 comment mark.

    Constructive comments are rare in the OS wars as most pro or amateur nerds feel a passion for their OS and just watching the fur fly in the comments answers that last pondering, about Windows users appreciating the subtleties compared to Mac users. Both camps appricate, love, worship and praise their subtles.

    Comment by Jack Spade at 03:40, 01 Apr, 2004 #

16. "Both camps appricate, love, worship and praise their subtles."

    Actually, I don't think they do. Mac users love their Mac, but to PC users their PC, and Windows, is just a tool. They don't love it. To them, "subtle features" are just plain damn features, they're not something that they admire Microsoft or Bill Gates for.

    Comment by Tomas at 13:48, 01 Apr, 2004 #

17. This is very off-topic, but I couldn't help but noticing it. Remove every other letter in "Cederholm" and you get, watch and amaze, "Cdrom"! Wicked!

    And that's another reason for me to not stay up til 5:30 AM...

    Comment by Marcus Stade at 05:26, 02 Apr, 2004 #

18. Comment 15: Right on, Tomas! Most Windows users could care less for these subtle features. Windows users are less likely to get all excited over such simple things.

    If you have to really see how Mac users get excited just follow Quicksilver related entries in the blogosphere. Most posts just say get the damn thing. I still haven't figured out what it does. Because nobody has told me so. "If you have a mac, you can't live without quicksilver".

    That said, there is no doubt some applications are really wonderful in the Mac world. Web Developer - BBEdit. The iSeries (iTunes, iPhoto etc) are far superior than comparable products. I still stick to Winamp. Safari seems like a good browser.

    And the point about Windows pushing people not learn anything is more of a compliment than a complaint. Most people really don't need to deal with this complexity. If Windows is able to do this, its a bonus. If its file system and save boxes are at once simple and superior (and cater to a broad audience), then Windows has reached a sweet-spot that is incomparable.

    Comment by Sunny at 11:28, 02 Apr, 2004 #

19. After the recent "Windows XP Reloaded" thing, I came across a funny comic strip.

    The strip was composed by two pictures.

    In the first picture a couple of guys were complaining in this fashion: "What? A new version of Microsoft Windows every year? That's crazy, our company can't afford to upgrade every year".

    In the second picture Steve Jobs, behind a counter, was selling copies of Mac OS X 10.4. Some people was crying for joy, other people looked in extasy, and the last one was saying something "Thanks Apple, a new version every year...".

    Well, I think that strip portraits in an accurate the way Win and Mac users think.

    P.S.
    I'm sorry, I lost the link to that strip. Dam me and my lazyness...

    Comment by Neko at 22:06, 04 Apr, 2004 #

20. http://www.xplosivevision.com/swimp/blog/index.php
    check out the saturday post..

    Comment by jam at 15:12, 06 Apr, 2004 #

21. jam: Try reading the entire post.

    Comment by Tomas at 15:59, 06 Apr, 2004 #